Episode 15
What's Next with Sarah Keith and Dan Hojnik
About Sarah Keith and Dan Hojnik
Sarah Keith
Group MD of Active and Involved Media
Having spent 25 of her 30 media YEARS in Australia and the UK working on the publisher side of the business Sarah enjoys both the challenge and opportunity that working across Active and Involved presents. Having spent time working in commercially focused roles for media brands as diverse as SBS and Fox Sports Venues, Channel 4 and Publicis the key theme for Sarah in these businesses has been client value creation.
Dan Hojnik
Media Strategist, GM of Involved Media, (very new dad to Oscar.)
Having returned to Australia after 10 years in Strategy and Planning roles in the UK, Dan joined Paykel Media and helped drive the rebrand to Involved Media to reposition the agency firmly as a value creator for clients. Architect of the” Involved to Power of Active” value proposition Dan has been a key driver of strategic thinking both internally across the business and externally for clients for the last two years.
Transcript
Hello. My name is Karim Kanji, and this is the What's Next Podcast, brought to you by Active International. On today's podcast, we bring to you a conversation from two members of our team at Involved Media in Australia: Dan Hojnik, GM and Head of Strategy, and Sarah Keith, Managing Director. Enjoy the conversation.
Sarah Keith (:So today, we're going to talk about what next? What next, in terms of macro marketing trends and media trends? They're keeping us to time, so I'm hoping that we can cover about three each. The full report that we're going to refer to is on our website, involvedmedia.com.au/blog. So, let's jump in, Recalibrating Your Media Mix For a Post-Pandemic World. I get that consumption's changed, Dan, but has it changed back again?
Dan Hojnik (:Yes and no is the answer to that question, so to kick this off in being very unspecific with my response. Like many things we saw in the wake of COVID and changing behaviors and consumer behaviors, but also media behaviors, what we found is a number of media behaviors have actually maintained and actually grown from where they were previously pre-pandemic.
Sarah Keith (:Give me an example.
Dan Hojnik (:So, for example, a lot more people are streaming than ever before when it comes to both television content, so broadcast VOD, online video, but also radio and audio as well. So, digital audio platforms continue to grow, as well as podcasting, which is really interesting. So, we didn't actually see a reversion back to pre-pandemic levels. What we saw was a maintained level, and that's really interesting when you think about the context of how people are consuming media now in this endemic world, and in the endemic that is Australia as well. It's consistent.
Sarah Keith (:Well, why should we care about this?
Dan Hojnik (:That's a good question. You should care about it because you shouldn't just rely on what you thought was, I guess, previously the right thing to do. You should be thinking about, "Well, do I need to reevaluate my audience and their consumption patterns and their behaviors, to challenge preconceptions?" No longer is it just about linear TV and prime time to reach a particular audience. We know that audience volumes are decreasing, which is an interesting thing when it comes to linear television. We know that there is a finite amount of inventory when it comes to linear as well, which has ultimately created this surplus of demand, but no supply, or not as much supply.
Sarah Keith (:In terms of why we should care about it, talk to me a little bit about the media mix across digital in the post-pandemic world.
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, so that's really interesting. So, you've got things like social media, which has gone from [inaudible 00:02:33], and we're going to talk a bit about that in your section later on, which is good. But certainly, the amount that people are engaging with social media, connected TV, online video, and also e-commerce, which is a really big consumer behavior shift in this post-pandemic world, people are shopping more and more online, and expecting to receive.
Sarah Keith (:So, we're talking about what next? Give us some good tips for brands.
Dan Hojnik (:Yup. So, consider the channels which have attracted a disproportionate audience. So, what I mean by that is a disproportionate audience for the amount paid for that reach. So, think about the reach to cost efficiency gap that you might be able to achieve. So, for example, we know that there is a disproportionate amount of people that actually listen to radio and digital audio, yet the CPMs that you pay for that audience are far cheaper than many other channels. So, consider actually adding that to your media mix to deliver a more effective overall channel CPM.
Sarah Keith (:Sounds good. So next, I really want to ask you about brands as extension of self, and I'm really not clear about this one. So, why is this something we should care about?
Dan Hojnik (:So, we should care about it, because it's become this trend that consumers actually want the brands that they engage with and utilize to be an extension of themselves and the values that they have as themselves.
Sarah Keith (:So, to help me understand this a little bit more, can you start by giving us an example of someone who's done it really well?
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah. The most recent example I can give is actually Patagonia. So, recently, they actually came out, and they've essentially donated the whole brand. The owner-founder, CEO has donated their brand and their profits to a non-government organization that's sole purposes to fight climate change. So, that to me, is really, really walking the talk. It's not just about going out there and saying that they're going to do something, and in a way, trying to just put words around what they're doing. It's more about the behaviors that they exhibit.
Sarah Keith (:So, what I'm hearing here is you're talking about authenticity. Explain this a little bit more for me.
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah. So, "authenticity" is a word that gets thrown around quite a bit. What it means in the context of how we're talking about it as brands and extension of self, is authenticity is all about behavior. It's not just about what you go out there and you say, it's about what you do, and for a brand to truly be an extension of its consumers and their values, they need to walk the talk. It's not just about going out there and releasing an advertising message that supports a particular cause or purpose, it's about them actually going out there and creating change through behavior.
(:And there are a number of different studies that have actually been released, and one most recently by the IPA, which actually shows that purpose-based marketing delivers far more effective business returns in both the short and the long term, than just standardized campaigns. But the interesting thing when you look at that is that there are a lot of examples of brands that have gone out with a purpose-based message, but it's not resonated, and that actually has a negative effect. So, if you go out there and you are going to do purpose, you better be doing it well and with authenticity, otherwise, it can have a negative effect.
Sarah Keith (:So, we're not going to talk about the ones that haven't done it well, but I really would like to ask you about Nike and Colin Kaepernick.
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, sure. So, Nike was my previous example of best in class really, because the stance was so brave, and it was brave because it was one that 50% of the US population didn't actually agree with. So, you've essentially got this massive, the Nike customer base, and what they did by supporting Colin Kaepernick when he took the knee during the US National Anthem, was actually, they alienated 50% of the population, not because they obviously didn't want to do that, but because they supported their talents, views, and beliefs, and actually just believed it was the right thing to do. And what's interesting is as a result of that, and even though there was that initial alienation, their online sales actually increased quite significantly in the wake of a lot of that press coverage.
Sarah Keith (:So, what you're saying is that purpose and profit aren't mutually exclusive?
Dan Hojnik (:No, not at all, but there are significant watchouts, I think. It's a fine line to walk when you're talking about purpose, and it's an even finer line to walk when you're putting purpose and profit in the same sentence.
Sarah Keith (:Well, you know what? I think we're going to move on to something a bit easier then. So, finally, from me today, I really am interested in one of the subjects you talked about in your paper, the on demand effect, "I want it all and I want it now," and I know that you're not just talking about television here. So, this is a really interesting one for us, as we've all become supply chain experts in the last two years, words that you'd never heard media people speak about a little while ago. So, talk me through this one. Why should we care about the on demand effect?
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, it's a really interesting one because when it comes to consumer behavior and people's expectations, the game has changed. Before COVID, people would probably wait a week or two weeks for a particular product or service, if they deemed it worth waiting for, whereas now, people have grown to expect that if they're going on their Amazon Prime account, they should be able to get something delivered within a day, 24 hours, whatever it might be, which has previously been a real challenge, particularly in Australia. We've got logistical challenges, just because of the size of country, particularly for regional areas, regional markets. But yeah, it's become, I guess, almost the norm when it comes to what people expect, is to just receive products and services on demand. It's not just about media, it's about the food, your groceries. You've got brands like delivery, Uber, Milk Run, all contributing to this on demand economy.
Sarah Keith (:And why should we care about this?
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, well, it's all about frictionless when it comes to the on demand economy, making sure that you're able to deliver a frictionless experience to consumers. When somebody wants something, being able to facilitate that in relatively real time, but also be able to show them that this is the progress along the way. So many times, you've been waiting for a food delivery or wondering where your package may be, and just being able to see where it is actually brings comfort, and if you can't see that, then that is an element of it being a brand friction that you're experiencing.
Sarah Keith (:So, tips for brands on this one?
Dan Hojnik (:Certainly a provision of a frictionless experience and being able to do that consistently, which I think is the challenge. So, it's not just about on the one occasion you're having this frictionless experience, it needs to be consistent. I would say that there is definitely some expectation management that needs to happen. So, depending on the product and service, just being able to give someone a realistic view and work out where pressure points are, and then use those pressure points to develop into something that is more frictionless in the future, I think is a good way to start thinking about, well, how can you go from a consumer journey that isn't necessarily perfect, to one that then becomes seamless and frictionless?
(:But the one thing I do want to end on for this point is that frictionless shouldn't be at the expense of what makes a product or service unique. There is something really interesting in a brand's friction or a product's friction, and that might be the way a product smells, the way a product feels. Don't let you trying to sort out a frictionless consumer experience get in the way of still being able to deliver those elements of positive friction as well.
Sarah Keith (:Well, thank you. I know that we've scratched the surface of the report, so just a reminder that you can see the full report on our website, involvedmedia.com.au/blog. Now, Dan, over to you.
Dan Hojnik (:Great, thank you very much, Sarah. What we're going to talk about is the media landscape, and Sarah, I'm very excited to get your views on this, because you've worked for a number of high class media organizations in both the UK and Australia, and who knows where else? But what we really want to understand is this view of, in this document we talk about the media trends, the media landscape, and that it's all about extension and measurement, and what I really wanted to hear from you is at an overall level, what does that actually mean in the context of the media landscape?
Sarah Keith (:So, let's talk about extension first. So, each platform, as you used to know it, has another element. So, it's no use just thinking about television as TV. TV is now AVOD or BVOD, broadcast quality VOD, as we call it in Australia. Radio is music streaming podcasts, out of home digital delivery on programmatic, print digital subscriptions. So, it's really important when you think about the media landscape now, you really do have to think about where those audiences are across the breadth of product that the platforms or the companies are providing. And in terms of measurement, this is becoming increasingly hard and complicated because of all the extensions, and it's really driven by technology and embraced by the consumer whose consumption habits have changed, but in the media industry, we really need to turn our focus to ensuring that what we're providing for our clients and brands are relevant numbers of what they're purchasing.
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, very good, and I think it'd be great to interrogate some examples of key channels and how that then comes through, because the first thing that we wanted to talk about here was this audio visual behemoth. So, no longer do we just talk about TV in its linear form, it's all about screens. But from your perspective, so when it comes to the landscape of video, what are the interesting things that we should be thinking about?
Sarah Keith (:Well, there's a couple of things, so let's stay on measurement for a moment. So, Australia are really leading the way in terms of measurement across screens with VOZ, which is Virtual Australia, and this is positioned to become the all screen, cross-platform planning and reporting standard for Australia's television industry, and the important thing is it's objective, it's transparent, and it can be used to evaluate that total screen performance across all platforms. It's really going to be a massive step forward for brands and clients, but I think also, it's really incumbent upon all different channels to find how they can use their own first-party data, syndicated data, to continue to create true incremental audience reach with greater precision, scale, and impact for clients.
Dan Hojnik (:Great. I guess it seems quite apt that we talk about audio, given that we are doing a podcast. It'd be really great to get your view on the current state of play when it comes to audio, but also how extension and measurement can actually apply to the platform.
Sarah Keith (:So, audio is booming. I mean, not since the Walkman, in what, 1980, have we seen the same kind of exponential increase in personal audio consumption, and it's really continuing to shift as audiences gravitate towards streaming, towards podcast listening, and there's a knock-on effect, which is that more brands are allocating budget towards digital audio platforms. It's still underway, you mentioned that in your section, in terms of consumption versus revenue, but it really is, it's booming. And in Australia, radio continues to be the most listened to platform, but over the course of the pandemic, podcast listening increased by about 15%, I think, with over a quarter of Australians now being weekly podcast listeners.
(:And I think what's really interesting about audio is again, thinking about that extension element, you need to think about audio in three ways. So, radio, which has the ability to engage listeners for extended periods, you've then got podcasting, which provides an environment that's really primed for high levels of memory and coding, incredibly valuable to brands, and then you've got music streaming, which we know helps drive real strong positive attitudes towards brands.
Dan Hojnik (:And measurement, which is something we wanted to touch on as well, which previously, from even radio and a TV perspective even, what's the actual impact? How do we demonstrate that? What are the next steps for measurement in radio?
Sarah Keith (:So, it's a tough one, and I mean, the research really highlights how important it is to understand how best to optimize messaging across audio stacked media plan, to reach consumers within the ecosystem at the right time, on the right platform, with the appropriate message. And we've heard that before, but usually we talk about that across all media, but now with the extensions that you have within audio, it's really important to look within that ecosystem, and it's really, really tough, and I know that for example, Nova, who are hosting us today, Nova have a particular approach that they're taking with this.
Dan Hojnik (:Yeah, it is really interesting, because what you're able to do now with your traditional radio plans, as well as your digital audio, is actually understand the uplift that's seen after a [inaudible 00:14:52]. So, taking your post times, looking minute by minute at things like web traffic data, and actually seeing what is the uplift site traffic to sales, and actually making it accountable that way. So, we're seeing this convergence of measurement when it comes to the extension of mediums as well, which is really great.
Sarah Keith (:I'm just going to throw in a stat there. So, I picked up, I can't source this stat but I wrote it down, that 90% of users switch from one device to another during a day. So, it's absolutely vital that this cross-device attribution becomes standard in the way that we're measuring our audio campaigns.
Dan Hojnik (:All right, very good. And now, we're going to close with digital, and specifically, because it'd be foolish to think that we can take on the vastness of digital in its entirety in the time that we have left, but we are going to talk specifically about gaming and social. So, Sarah Keith, please tell us what is the state of play when it comes to gaming and social?
Sarah Keith (:Well, I want to talk about social first, and obviously, the most recognized development in the social media landscape is Facebook rebranding as Meta, and setting the scene for the move into virtual reality, and the overarching metaverse concepts at scale. Now, I'm not going to go talk about the Metaverse, again, you can read more about that on our website, but the developments that are in place may help the platform reverse the ongoing decline against the younger demographics. Those younger demographics are, as we know, they're with TikTok. TikTok has become embedded into the broader social media landscape. It's going to become a key consideration and extension of digital marketers in the future, to allow for better communication to predominantly under 40s, and a more platform agnostic audience.
(:Snapchat has maintained its position as a key platform for communications to a more niche audience in social media, and I think it's important to know its user base is understandably smaller than its competitors, but they're still drawn in with new trends with shorter, snackable content, and that in turn, makes it easier for people to navigate entry for AR onto the platform in the future. And I think it's important, we also should with social, mention Instagram. Obviously, with the growth of TikTok, Insta has chased trends to really maintain its popularity with the younger users, expanding shopping and increased product discovery option.
(:And if I sum up social with one thing, and I can really, and it's brilliant through Instagram, it's all about e-commerce. According to recent research by Accenture, global social commerce sales now reached, or they reached 492 billion last year, and they're expected to triple by 2025. And you talked about frictionless purchase, Dan, in your section, and this is where the social platforms are doing this absolutely brilliantly, and I know I shouldn't ever, ever talk about mesearch, but let's face it, who hasn't in the last six months or so had an item turn up or be delivered, and you think, "Gosh, when did I order that?" And because it was such a frictionless moment that you made that purchase and it just arrived, and that is the power of social media.
Dan Hojnik (:Indeed, and something really interesting that we also wanted to touch on, which is something that's become increasingly social from a-
Sarah Keith (:Ah. Nice segue.
Dan Hojnik (:Yes, it is a segue into the world of gaming.
Sarah Keith (:So, look, it should come as no surprise that the pandemic has accelerated the trend of gaming, and those gaming environments becoming more social spaces. In fact, I think the studies, over a third of consumers now say that they join game worlds for the social aspects, rather than purely gaming purposes. They congregate in gaming environments to share social experiences, including listening to music, watching films, and this in turn, has seen ad spend increase. I think it's important also to note that mobile phones have unknowingly made everyone a gamer, with gamers representing 77% of all downloaded apps and free to play applications, and that's really lowered the entry barrier, while keeping future revenue streams open. Indeed, gaming stocks have overperformed by, I think the number is 600% in the last five years, more than doubling in 2020 alone.
(:And I think the big thing for what's next are female gamers. Female gamers now make up a significant portion of gamers worldwide, however, they're often overlooked from a marketing perspective. Even within gaming worlds, women playing these games are still primary decision makers in households, I think in 85% of households, and research shows that just 12% of next gen video games exclusively feature a female protagonist. So, this is a massive, massive opportunity for clients and brands for 2023.
Dan Hojnik (:It's been an absolute pleasure to interview you, Sarah, and I know that you'll say the same thing about me. What you can do, if you enjoyed hearing about our trends, is actually go to the Involved Media website. So, as Sarah mentioned earlier, involvedmedia.com.au/blog, and you can download the full reports there. Thank you very much, and see you next time.
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