Episode 11
What's Next with Chris Stephenson
ABOUT CHRIS STEPHENSON
Chris is Chief Marketing Officer for PHD Worldwide His role is to globally amplify PHD’s vision of enabling marketers to ‘Make the Leap’ – a call to action and reference to how the agency prioritises creativity to drive disproportionate growth for marketers, backed by its proprietary planning platform Omni Studio.
Chris is a passionate believer in the mutual benefits of brands engaging people in positive and constructive ways; he believes that considered, creative, integrated, innovative communications create value for audiences, brands and businesses; that reach is not an objective; and that hope is not a strategy.
His background is in strategic media and communications planning, and has delivered thought leadership for a range of clients across both Europe and APAC, working on global and regional projects for brands including Singapore Airlines, Unilever, ANZ Bank, Google, Coca-Cola, Adidas, Ferrero, HSBC, Ebay, LG and The Guardian.
An industry thought-leader, Chris has co-written three books on the future of the media industry and the impact of machine learning on marketing. A regular and respected commentator on the communications industry, he has presented on stages including Cannes, Spikes Asia and Mumbrella360.
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Transcript
(upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hi there, my name is Chris Stephenson.
Speaker:I'm lucky enough to be the global CMO for PHD Media Network,
Speaker:and it's great to be talking to you today.
Speaker:- Chris, thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker:- An absolute pleasure, looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker:- Yeah.
Speaker:So, I've been reading some business books, Chris.
Speaker:I recently read Rishad Tobaccowala's book.
Speaker:He was also on the podcast.
Speaker:He talks about staying human in the age of data.
Speaker:I just went through the PHD book, "Shift,"
Speaker:and you guys talk about putting people
Speaker:and humanity back in the driver's seat.
Speaker:It's very interesting
Speaker:that these two books are coming out at the same time,
Speaker:exploring what I think are very similar themes.
Speaker:I wanted to ask you this, Chris.
Speaker:Who or what has been in the driver's seat up until now,
Speaker:and why is it important to put people back in there?
Speaker:- Hmm, it's a really, really great question.
Speaker:I mean, I think we would say,
Speaker:and the reason we wrote the book,
Speaker:the reason we wrote "Shift"
Speaker:was very much that our observation
Speaker:was that during the long decade,
Speaker:technology had been in the driving seat.
Speaker:So, what's the long decade?
Speaker:The long decade was this period from 2007,
Speaker:really through to about 2020,
Speaker:where we saw these incredible changes
Speaker:to the marketing ecosystem driven by technology adoption,
Speaker:platform development, data-driven capabilities.
Speaker:We saw these phenomenal proliferation of capabilities
Speaker:to the marketers toolkit throughout that long decade,
Speaker:2007 through 2020.
Speaker:However, what also happened during that long decade
Speaker:was a decrease in marketing effectiveness.
Speaker:So, what's going on there?
Speaker:We've got this 13-year period where we had more data,
Speaker:we had more tech, we had more capabilities,
Speaker:we had more options and formats
Speaker:and ways and places and spaces to engage with people,
Speaker:but marketing effectiveness declined.
Speaker:And we really wanted to understand that,
Speaker:and that's what's inherent to "Shift."
Speaker:And our intention really in the book
Speaker:is that what was in the driving seat was the tech,
Speaker:the platforms.
Speaker:And they brought huge benefits, huge benefits to the system,
Speaker:but we were missing the human part of the equation.
Speaker:And that considered creative, lateral human element
Speaker:is what we're now seeing brought to bear.
Speaker:And we're seeing actually,
Speaker:we think the tides turned on this,
Speaker:and "Shift" talks to this.
Speaker:The tides turned,
Speaker:and we think we're beginning to see
Speaker:an improvement in marketing effectiveness.
Speaker:And it's because there's been a realization and a wake up
Speaker:that marketing's had a bit of a midlife crisis,
Speaker:and marketing is emerging from this crisis
Speaker:with a much clearer view
Speaker:that the tech and the data has got to work for the business.
Speaker:It's got to work for the brand.
Speaker:It's got to work for the marketers,
Speaker:rather than businesses, brands,
Speaker:and marketers working for the tech.
Speaker:- That's very interesting.
Speaker:Follow up to that, you referred this phrase,
Speaker:"paralysis of analysis" when it comes to data.
Speaker:'Cause there's so much of it,
Speaker:and sometimes marketers can get stuck
Speaker:spending all their time looking at data
Speaker:and figuring out what it means, what it doesn't mean,
Speaker:and flipping it upside down on its head,
Speaker:is there such a thing as too much data,
Speaker:or are we just using it wrong?
Speaker:What are your thoughts on all of this?
Speaker:- It's a really interesting question.
Speaker:I mean, "Is there too much data?"
Speaker:is a bit like saying, you know, "Is there too much oxygen?"
Speaker:It's like, we live in a world that is rich with data,
Speaker:and you may as well worry about the sun going down.
Speaker:We are living in an incredibly rich world of data.
Speaker:What we often come across,
Speaker:and we talk about this a lot at PHD,
Speaker:is there's not too much data,
Speaker:what there is very often, too many KPIs.
Speaker:So what you tend to get is all this data tends to produce
Speaker:a proliferation of objectives,
Speaker:a proliferation of measurement.
Speaker:So, for us it's not a data problem,
Speaker:it's a measurement problem.
Speaker:The thing that we say a lot,
Speaker:"If you've got more than three KPIs, you don't have a KPI."
Speaker:As soon as you're measuring, monitoring, optimizing,
Speaker:thinking about considering more than three things
Speaker:from a measurement perspective,
Speaker:then you haven't got enough eyes on one ball.
Speaker:You're not paying enough attention to enough
Speaker:so that it's going to make a difference.
Speaker:So, no, we would say there's not too much data.
Speaker:We would say very often we come across situations
Speaker:where there are too many KPIs,
Speaker:too many things being measured.
Speaker:And we work really hard with marketers
Speaker:to help rationalize those
Speaker:to make sure that whatever data you've got,
Speaker:and all the data that you've got to bear,
Speaker:all of that data is being brought to bear
Speaker:on fewer, more focused KPIs
Speaker:that will make a genuine difference
Speaker:to what it is that you're trying to achieve.
Speaker:- That is brilliant.
Speaker:Thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker:Web 3.0, been a huge topic of conversation on this podcast,
Speaker:and probably everywhere else, you know?
Speaker:What's the role,
Speaker:what's the place of these new tools and technologies?
Speaker:We have Blockchain, NFTs, Metaverse, and so on.
Speaker:What's the role of all of these in reaching new markets,
Speaker:achieving goals and objectives?
Speaker:- I agree with you.
Speaker:I mean, I've been working in media planning and strategy
Speaker:and comms thinking 20 years.
Speaker:I've not seen anything like this in 20 years.
Speaker:The speed and pace and breadth
Speaker:with which the Metaverse and Web3 has kind of emerged
Speaker:on the marketing agenda.
Speaker:It's not new, it's been around for a while,
Speaker:but the speed in the last six months
Speaker:with which it has proliferated, it's genuinely surprised me.
Speaker:It really has.
Speaker:And I think there's an opportunity here
Speaker:for us to learn perhaps from a bit of hindsight on Web2.
Speaker:So, if we look at Web3 in the context of Web2 and Web1,
Speaker:and I think everyone listening to this podcast
Speaker:will understand that Web1 was the read web,
Speaker:Web2 was the read-write web,
Speaker:and Web 3 is going to be the read-write-own web, effectively.
Speaker:I'm guessing most of your listeners are across that.
Speaker:So, we think that context is valuable.
Speaker:And given that, let's look at Web3
Speaker:through a context of Web2.
Speaker:In hindsight, in retrospect,
Speaker:with that beautiful glorious benefit of hindsight,
Speaker:Web2 was an amazing party
Speaker:if you were in high consideration categories.
Speaker:If you were in a category with long consideration cycles,
Speaker:with a lot of research, lots of information,
Speaker:where you perhaps had an existing relationship
Speaker:with customers, you had a big first party data set,
Speaker:you had a lot of data to bring to bear,
Speaker:Web2 was a brilliant party, it was a great party to be at.
Speaker:It wasn't necessarily a party for every category to be at.
Speaker:And I think we've seen a lot of pretty high profile brands,
Speaker:who I won't name,
Speaker:but we have seen some pretty high profile brands say,
Speaker:"Perhaps we got a little ahead of ourselves
Speaker:on the niche targeting, the micro programmatic capabilities,
Speaker:the retargeting potential."
Speaker:We've seen some high profile brands pull back from that.
Speaker:And I think when the history of the web is written,
Speaker:I think what will write this chapter,
Speaker:I think that the Web2 was a brilliant party
Speaker:if you were high consideration.
Speaker:If you weren't high consideration,
Speaker:perhaps it wasn't necessarily a party
Speaker:you should have been at
Speaker:unless you had a great reason to be there.
Speaker:So, given that lens, what kind of party is Web3?
Speaker:Which brands are naturally going to have fun
Speaker:and have a great time at the Web3 party?
Speaker:The great brands and categories
Speaker:that are going to have fun in the Web3 party
Speaker:are high-interest brands, the high-interest categories.
Speaker:If you're in brands and categories
Speaker:that people are waiting for the next thing,
Speaker:that lean into, that are interested in,
Speaker:if you're in brands and categories
Speaker:that make things that people want to own and have
Speaker:and share and talk about and want,
Speaker:then Web3 is this amazing playpen
Speaker:where you can create assets and make assets
Speaker:and sell assets and make a lot of money from things.
Speaker:And you can create art, you can collaborate,
Speaker:you can play, and you can really get deep
Speaker:and empower and embed and connect with communities.
Speaker:The danger we've got, I think,
Speaker:from an industry perspective
Speaker:is that we tend to get excited about the next big thing,
Speaker:and we tend to think
Speaker:that that next big thing applies to everyone,
Speaker:to every brand, every category.
Speaker:And if you are not at that party,
Speaker:then you're just not with it, and you are missing out.
Speaker:So, I think we've got to bring
Speaker:a bit more critical thinking to Web3.
Speaker:If Web2 was a party for those categories
Speaker:with really high consideration
Speaker:where we think Web3 is a party
Speaker:for those brands and categories with high-interest,
Speaker:that's not to say, if you're from a low interest category
Speaker:or a low interest brand, you can't crash the party.
Speaker:You can absolutely crash the party,
Speaker:but if you're going to crash the party,
Speaker:you've got to be amazing.
Speaker:You've got to be entertaining.
Speaker:You've got to be super crazy, awesome,
Speaker:and you've got to bring something to the party
Speaker:that isn't necessarily there,
Speaker:which of course means creativity, innovation,
Speaker:which is another reason why we think
Speaker:that actually humans are now much more in the driving seat.
Speaker:Back to your initial question.
Speaker:We think that tech isn't going to get us through Web3.
Speaker:The Web3 is of communities,
Speaker:and it's of passions, and it's of ownership.
Speaker:And it is the connection and the tech and the retargeting
Speaker:and whatever places the cookie
Speaker:is not going to get us through that.
Speaker:Human connection, intuition, and creativity and passion
Speaker:is what's going to get brands through Web3.
Speaker:So, a brilliant party to be at if you're high-interest.
Speaker:If you're not, go, but be amazing when you crash the party.
Speaker:- That's wonderful.
Speaker:I hope I get invited to the party.
Speaker:I hope I don't have to crash it myself.
Speaker:- I hope so too. I hope we all will.
Speaker:I hope we're all interesting enough to be at the Web3 party.
Speaker:I can only hope. - Exactly, yes. (chuckles)
Speaker:Chris, you have the unique perspective
Speaker:of having a global position for PHD.
Speaker:You have a global view now with your clients,
Speaker:with your agency.
Speaker:You come from a regional lens, a local lens previous,
Speaker:I'm hoping you can share maybe some regional differences
Speaker:or similarities that you're seeing in various markets
Speaker:that maybe might surprise some of our listeners.
Speaker:- Yeah, it is a very interesting question.
Speaker:And certainly, as I've moved from domestic planning
Speaker:in the UK, then Australia,
Speaker:regional in APAC or Singapore, and now global,
Speaker:I've absolutely seen differences.
Speaker:But for me, I think what I've observed
Speaker:is the global trends and pendulums
Speaker:rather than individual market differences.
Speaker:So, what I mean by that
Speaker:is that we definitely went through this big pendulum swing
Speaker:towards globalization, towards global brands,
Speaker:towards big iconic global,
Speaker:but of course, global brands are still there.
Speaker:But I think what we've definitely seen in recent years
Speaker:is the pendulum swing back.
Speaker:And we've seen a real proliferation of local brands
Speaker:with real local cultural insight and cultural relevance.
Speaker:We've really seen those tick up.
Speaker:And I think that the pendulum will swing back.
Speaker:But I think we're definitely at a phase
Speaker:where the pendulum is well and truly swinging
Speaker:towards those brands that have got real local resonance
Speaker:and real local insight at a market level.
Speaker:And we're seeing this real amazing proliferation
Speaker:of different market cultures,
Speaker:and the brands that thrive within those
Speaker:really come to the fall.
Speaker:I think what I have seen, though,
Speaker:it's not market based,
Speaker:but I've noticed in different markets where I've worked,
Speaker:that I hope none of your listeners
Speaker:will take this the wrong way,
Speaker:but I do think that most marketers are fundamentally insane
Speaker:(Karim laughing)
Speaker:in the sense that most marketers
Speaker:I've come across quite widely,
Speaker:but most marketers that I've encountered with,
Speaker:they want to completely contradict me things
Speaker:at the same time.
Speaker:They want to think new things, blue sky,
Speaker:create, innovate, break boundaries, break conventions,
Speaker:be challengers, do things that no one's ever done before,
Speaker:ensure they want to be famous.
Speaker:However, marketers also want to make the numbers,
Speaker:drive the results, make sure the board gets value
Speaker:you make sure shareholders get value,
Speaker:you make sure reporting is in play, measurement's in play,
Speaker:everything works and ticks the boxes.
Speaker:So in short, they don't want to get fired.
Speaker:And that marketing impulse,
Speaker:those impulses that will make a market or get famous
Speaker:are often very different impulses
Speaker:to ones that will make them not get fired.
Speaker:What's fascinating to me,
Speaker:and when I love connecting with, especially now,
Speaker:when marketing is in such flux, what I'm really interested,
Speaker:and why I love exploring with market
Speaker:is how they balance those things.
Speaker:How do marketers get famous, and how do they not get fired?
Speaker:And I've seen that done differently in different markets.
Speaker:Some markets generally will come from a place of creativity,
Speaker:breaking boundaries, challenger thinking,
Speaker:and think, "Well, how do we sell that to a place of safety?"
Speaker:Other markets, to make a generalization,
Speaker:might start from a position of wealth or safety.
Speaker:How do we not get fired?
Speaker:How do we get everything in play?
Speaker:And then how do we build some creativity into that?
Speaker:And I don't think either was wrong,
Speaker:but I think it's fascinating for me,
Speaker:over working in markets and in regions and globally,
Speaker:how different marketers, different markets,
Speaker:different categories will balance
Speaker:those potentially contradictory things
Speaker:and square the circle on those.
Speaker:I find it fascinating.
Speaker:And I may know
Speaker:of the way marketers are able to balance those
Speaker:and really keep them in play and generate growth
Speaker:by having both those things together.
Speaker:I find it genuinely fascinating.
Speaker:- Yeah. Wow, that's a fascinating answer.
Speaker:I wasn't expecting that one.
Speaker:Thank you, Chris, for sharing that.
Speaker:Final question for you today, Chris,
Speaker:what's next in advertising and marketing?
Speaker:Is it the technology? Is it new media?
Speaker:Is there a new Facebook killer?
Speaker:What's next, and maybe what should we be preparing for?
Speaker:- It's a really great question.
Speaker:I think, what was it someone said?
Speaker:Someone said, "Prediction is really difficult,
Speaker:especially when it's about the future."
Speaker:I'm stealing that from- (Karim laughs)
Speaker:I'm stealing that from someone.
Speaker:Well, your listeners will probably tell you
Speaker:where that's from.
Speaker:I remember that.
Speaker:So, yeah, prediction is difficult,
Speaker:especially when it's forward-looking.
Speaker:I think there's one thing that we talk too a lot in PHD,
Speaker:and we talk too a lot of it in the book.
Speaker:And obviously, if you want to more about "Shift,"
Speaker:you can visit shiftbyphd.com,
Speaker:and then there's loads of information about the book there
Speaker:if you want to find out more.
Speaker:But one of the things we really talk too
Speaker:when we look ahead in that is decentralization.
Speaker:We are entering an age of decentralization.
Speaker:And the big thing that marketers
Speaker:are going to have to contend with over the coming decade
Speaker:is one of the decentralization of marketing.
Speaker:That's going to impact environments.
Speaker:It's going to impact how we connect with people.
Speaker:Because who owns the environments,
Speaker:who owns the platforms is fundamentally changing
Speaker:as we get into a Web3 world.
Speaker:The monopolistic, the oligopolistic nature
Speaker:of the Web2 walled gardens,
Speaker:I don't need to say who they are, right?
Speaker:Those big monopolistic,
Speaker:oligopolies that existed in the digital world in Web2,
Speaker:we're going to see those decentralized.
Speaker:And we're going to have a plethora of tiny walled gardens
Speaker:around communities, around individuals,
Speaker:around platforms, around spaces.
Speaker:And they'll be interoperable.
Speaker:So, what marketers are going to have to deal with
Speaker:is how they deal with that decentralization of influence,
Speaker:how they deal with that decentralization of reach,
Speaker:how they deal with that decentralization of engagement.
Speaker:And how do marketers navigate the new rules
Speaker:of reaching and engaging decentralized audiences,
Speaker:decentralized communities, in a way that is scalable,
Speaker:I think, is probably going to be the challenge
Speaker:of marketing in the next decade.
Speaker:- Chris, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker:This has been a fascinating conversation.
Speaker:- An absolute pleasure.
Speaker:Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker:And yeah, I loved the conversation.
Speaker:Thanks so much for having me on the pod.
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